The following are rebuttals against the
arguments of a
well-known Christian seminary professor and critic of the NDE. In his
book the professor discounts all NDEs as not conforming to his narrow
interpretation of the Bible and as being the work of the devil.
Argument:
Who is the Being of Light reported in NDEs?
Rebuttal:
There are many Beings of Light appearing in NDEs. The Bible declares God
is light (1 John 1:5). People in the higher spirit realms emanate
this light that is God. The Being of Light can be literally anyone: Jesus,
Buddha, the Hindu god of death, an angel, or even a deceased loved one for
example. It usually depends on the person's religious bias and cultural
background. NDEs reveal that God's light is manifested within many
beings in the spirit realm.
Argument: It
has been claimed by some people that one of the Beings of Light is Jesus
Christ. This seems to be wrong because this being says and does things
that are contrary to the Jesus in the Bible. Since Jesus never changes (Heb.
13:8) it would be impossible for this Being of Light to be the same
Jesus revealed in the Bible. Some believe many of the people having NDEs
encounter a counterfeit Jesus.
Rebuttal:
The
Being of Light in NDEs cannot be counterfeit because this being passes the
test given by Jesus. It is the test to determine whether the spirit is of
God or not.
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Do not believe every
spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God .. (1 John 4:1) |
Jesus himself gives us the test. According
to the gospels, Jesus was accused by the religious leaders of performing
his miracles by the power of Satan. This is the same accusation the
professor brings against the Being of Light in NDEs. This accusation is
made even though both Jesus and the Being of Light bears incredible love,
joy, peace, and all the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus' reply to this accusation is:
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Every kingdom divided
against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against
itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against
himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by
Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be
your judges. But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the
kingdom of God has come upon you ... Make a tree good and its fruit
will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is
recognized by its fruit. (Matt. 12:24-37) |
And what is the fruit that Jesus is
referring to? He is referring to the fruit of the Holy Spirit. What is the
fruit of the Holy Spirit?
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"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
(Gal. 5:22-23) |
Anyone familiar with NDEs knows the Being of Light gives an astonishing amount of goodness,
holiness, love, joy, peace and such. Jesus made it very clear Satan cannot
produce the fruit of the spirit. But what about the spirit itself? God is
light. Is Satan light too? Some critics use the Bible verse below to judge
the Being of Light to be Satanic.
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Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14) |
Notice that the verse states that Satan masquerades as an angel of light. The verse does not say he
actually is an angel of light. It means that Satan can look like a good
tree, but he is totally devoid of light and totally devoid of the
fruits of the Holy Spirit. This verse describes Satan's ability to
deceive people into believing he is an angel of light. But we cannot be
deceived if we use the test given by Jesus. Using this test we can ask: Is
there good fruit involved with the Being of Light? If so, then it must be
of God. Is there not good fruit involved? If not, then the Being of Light must be of Satan.
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"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
(Matt. 7:15-20) |
It should be obvious to anyone who is even
slightly familiar with the
Being of Light and NDEs that this test confirms the Being of Light to be of God.
NDEs show an astonishing amount of unconditional love from the Being of Light.
And overwhelming love is the most common and greatest characteristic found
in my research of fifty NDEs I profile on this website.
God is
light. There is no light in darkness. Nor is
there darkness in light. Satan is no angel of light and no good tree
bearing good fruit. The Being of Light reveals a tremendous amount of light
and this light can only come from God. Satan cannot produce light, love, joy,
peace, or any of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. NDEs do produce these fruit.
There are very serious consequences of attributing
things of God to Satan. When Jesus was accused of performing miracles by
the power of Satan and before he gave the test:
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And so I tell you,
every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against
the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son
of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit
will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt.
12:31-32) |
Jesus makes very clear the grave
consequences of attributing to Satan the works of the Holy Spirit. Like
the professor, many critics are quick to declare that the Beings of Light in NDEs are Satanic. They probably don't realize that they may be
dangerously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Jesus said such behavior
is a sin that cannot be forgiven.
The idea that the Beings of Light in NDEs
are sinister or of the devil, ignores common sense. Dr. Raymond Moody
is considered the father of the NDE and he responded to this kind of
criticism in his latest book entitled The
Last Laugh.
|
Fervent critics see nothing amiss in preaching to
Aunt Florene, bereft and kindly and fragile though she may be, that it was
not really the spirit of Uncle Hamperd who visited her last week to
comfort her and to tell her where he put those important papers. No, it
was actually a malignant demon disguised as uncle Hamperd, there to lure
her into Hell, so she had better go home and read the Bible. |
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|
The doctrine that the Devil can
disguise himself as Christ must be particularly troubling to
fundamentalist authorities as they consider the possibilities of pediatric
NDEs. Does God permit Satan to fool dying kids by masquerading as Jesus?
Or is God powerless to prevent that kind of Satanic deception? If so,
common decency dictates that funda-Christian NDExperts urgently prepare
clear, precise instructions that will enable desperately ill, dying pre-schoolers
to distinguish a Satanophanic Jesus from the real, true funda-Christian
one. And would God allow the Devil to sneak up on a dying toddler by
appearing as Santa Claus or Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell or the Easter
Bunny? |
To demonstrate how foolish the professor's
arguments are, here is a direct quote from the professor's own book on
how the Being of Light is a counterfeit Jesus:
|
"Even if the loving, brilliantly illuminated being
you meet during a near-death experience introduces himself as Jesus, and
looks just like him from the paintings, don't believe him for a minute!
You've got to put him to the professor's ideological test first. Jesus has
to pass the professor's Bible exam, before he can even be him!" |
Such statements are completely absurd. The
professor errs because he limits Jesus to his own narrow interpretation of
the Bible. Any NDE bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit and passing
Christ's test must not be said to be of the devil. It would
be blasphemous to do so.
Perhaps this explains why the NDE described in 2 Cor. 12:2-4
states these are inexpressible things which people were not permitted to
talk about in those days. These matters may have simply been too high for
first century Christians to understand – and some twentieth century
professors. We must test the spirit of NDEs - not using the test of the
professor - but rather the test from Jesus. In doing so you will find NDEs
do bear much fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Argument: The
Beings of Light
appearing in NDEs teach the idea that death is good and is
not to be feared.
Rebuttal: This
is not true. NDEs generally show that if a person is not prepared for
death their experience after death is not very good and should be greatly
feared. A case in point is Rev. Howard Storm
and
his NDE. Howard lived the life of an atheist and treated people very
badly. He was not prepared for death when he died because he ends up in
hell when he does. The result of death is that some people do go to hell.
Hellish NDEs make up a large number of reported NDEs. It is false to claim
the Beings of Light teach the idea that death is good and should not be
feared. In fact, some NDEs prove otherwise.
Argument:
The Being of Light identified as Jesus in NDEs teach that sin is not a
problem. In fact, the Being of Light believed to be Jesus often responds
to human sin and shortcomings with humor.
Rebuttal:
This is not true. Many NDEs show that if a person lives a sinful life
their experience will be a big problem for them after death. The fact is
that Jesus appears in NDEs to be very sad about the sin of humanity. Dr. George Ritchie
and his NDE is a case in point. During his NDE, Dr. Ritchie notices how
sad Jesus is for those in hell. To say otherwise is to display ignorance
about NDEs.
Argument:
The Being of Light identified as Jesus in NDEs teach that there is no hell
to worry about.
Rebuttal:
This is not true. Dr. George Ritchie's NDE and Rev. Howard Storm's NDE are
perfect examples of the reality of hell.
Argument:
The Being of Light identified as Jesus in NDEs teach that all people are
welcome to heaven regardless of whether or not they are a Christian.
Rebuttal:
This is not true. Many NDEs show that some people do go to hell. Although
it is God's will for everyone to go to heaven (1 Timothy
2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9) many people do not. NDEs in general show that
faith in Christ alone does not guarantee anyone a ticket to heaven. This
is supported by scripture also:
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Not everyone who says
to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who
does the will of my Father who is in heaven. |
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Many will say to me on that
day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive
out demons and perform many miracles?" |
|
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Then I will tell them plainly,
"I
never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" (Matt. 7:21-23) |
Argument: The
Being of Light identified as Jesus in NDEs teach that all religions are
valid.
Rebuttal:
This is not true. The Jesus in NDEs states that God does not care about a
person's religion - only the condition of their heart. Many NDEs show that a person's religious beliefs (or
lack thereof) can make the difference in how they perceive their
spiritual condition in the spirit realm. All religions have some truth in
them which certain people need. But the Jesus of the NDE does not teach
that all religions are valid; he teaches that religions are outward
doctrines that can lead people within to true religion - the
spirit of unconditional love. For example, after Rev. Howard Storm was rescued from
hell by Jesus during his NDE he had this exchange with Jesus:
|
I asked them, for example, which was the best
religion. I was looking for an answer which was like:
"Presbyterians." I figured these guys were all Christians. |
|
|
The
answer I got was: "The best religion is the religion that brings you
closest to God."" |
This information shows the goal of religion
is to bring a person closer to God. It is also implied that some religions
bring you closer to God than others. Although a person's religious
beliefs (or lack thereof) can influence the quality of their afterlife
experience a person's religious affiliation or church membership itself
does not seem to matter much to Jesus. After all, if religion really
mattered wouldn't everyone in heaven be Jewish?
Jesus did not come
preaching some new religion. Jesus preached love. NDEs reveal that it is
love, not religion, that creates spiritual growth and saves us from a hell
of our own making. It is clear from the gospel accounts alone that Jesus
is not concerned about a person's religious status. Jesus told the
religious leaders who killed him that the prostitutes were going to enter
heaven before they did (Matt. 21:31).
It is clear from NDEs that the
Bible and common sense that religion is a cultural institution. On the
other hand, love is universal and not limited to a particular culture. According
to the Sermon on the Mount, love is the greatest religion
there is. Love is also what many of the great world religions is all
about. However not everyone practices this religion of love.
Argument:
In view of the fact that these ideas go against what the Jesus of the
Bible taught, we have reason to conclude that the Jesus appearing in NDEs
is in fact a lying spirit.
Rebuttal:
This is not true. The Jesus appearing in many NDEs does not go against
what the Bible teaches. Such experiences may go against the professor's
narrow interpretation of what Jesus said; but they do not go against what
Jesus said. The professor has not tested the spirits properly. He is
making the same mistake of the Pharisees by testing the spirits using your
own narrow interpretation of scripture. The correct test is Jesus' test to judge by
their fruit. If no fruit of the Holy Spirit is present, then it is safe to
assume it is not of God. Jesus bore much fruit of the Holy Spirit yet was
condemned by the religious leaders because he did not fit into their
interpretation of scripture. Had they properly tested the spirits and
judged Jesus on the basis of his fruit, he probably would not have been
crucified. In the same way, if the professor would test the Jesus
appearing in NDEs based on his fruit he would not be accusing him of
being a lying spirit.
Argument: The
Jesus appearing in NDEs is happy to mimic the Jesus of the Bible if the
end result is that he can lead people away from the true Jesus of the
Bible.
Rebuttal:
The Jesus appearing in NDEs bears much fruit of the Holy Spirit. Remember,
the Jesus of the Bible had this to say about testing the spirits:
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Make a tree good and
its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for
a tree is recognized by its fruit. (Matt. 12:24-37) |
|
|
A good tree cannot
bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. (Matt.
7:18) |
Even the professor must admit that the
Jesus appearing in NDEs bears much fruit of love. But since the professor
is testing the spirits using his own narrow interpretation of scripture
and not testing by the fruit. It is HE who is leading people astray.
Argument:
Many people who had a NDE come away from the experience with a lesser
view of the Bible. One person even concluded the Lord isn't
interested in theology and another said that God didn't care
about church doctrine at all. The Jesus of the Bible, however, is
certainly interested in correct doctrine.
Rebuttal:
Such generalities about near-death experiencers having a lesser view of the Bible is
completely bogus. Common sense tells one that generalities such as this
cannot be true. One cannot make a correlation between having a NDE and
having a lower view of the Bible.
Notice the professor does not cite the
NDEs that lead him to this conclusion. Nevertheless, the person the
professor mentions who concluded the Lord isn't interested in
theology is Rev. Howard Storm. It is a true statement to say that God is
not interested in theology. Here is the complete account of what Howard Storm said:
| I asked, for example, "What
about the Bible?" |
|
| They responded, "What about it?" |
|
| I asked
if it was true, and they said it was. |
|
|
Asking them why it was that when I
tried to read it, all I saw were contradictions, they took me back to my
life's review again – something that I had overlooked. They showed me,
for the few times I had opened the Bible, that I had read it with the idea
of finding contradictions and problems. I was trying to prove to myself
that it wasn't worth reading.
|
|
|
I observed to them that the Bible wasn't
clear to me. It didn't make sense. They told me that it contained
spiritual truth, and that I had to read it spiritually in order to
understand it. It should be read prayerfully. |
|
|
My friends informed me that
it was not like other books. They also told me, and I later found out this
was true, that when you read it prayerfully, it talks to you. It reveals
itself to you. And you don't have to work at it anymore ... [at the end
of his experience, Storm says:] I try not to impose my Christianity
on other people. If people have God-like characteristics, a feeling of
compassion and living that out, then its ok. I respond more to behavior
than philosophy. God really doesn't care about theology. |
If you read about the NDEs of Rev. Howard Storm
and George Ritchie you will see why God does not care about theology or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Nevertheless,
NDEs do reveal a great concern for the commands of God. Love is the
command of God (Rom. 13:10, John 15:12) However, concerning
theology or rules taught by men it is clear that Christ himself doesn't
care about it:
|
You
hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: "These people
honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship
me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." (Matt.
15:7-9) |
|
|
They worship me in
vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. You have let go of the
commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men. |
|
|
And he
said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of
God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your
father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must
be put to death.'" |
|
|
But you say that if a man says to his father or mother:
'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that
is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his
father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that
you have handed down. And you do many things like that. (Mark
7:7-13) |
Paul has this to say about rules taught by men:
|
Since you died with
Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still
belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not
taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use,
because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations
indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship,
their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack
any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (Col. 2:20-23) |
Argument:
The Jesus of
the Bible is certainly interested in correct doctrine. John 8:31-32
support this.
|
To the
Jews who had believed in him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teachings,
you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth
will set you free." (John 8:31-32) |
Rebuttal:
The teachings
of Christ is not theology. Jesus taught unconditional love - not theology.
It was theologians who had Jesus crucified. Jesus taught that love is the sign of a true disciple of Christ:
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All men will know
that you are my disciples if you love one another. (John 13:35) |
Jesus did not say, "All men will know that you are
my disciples if you hold the teachings of the Church" or "hold
the teachings of the Bible" or "hold the teachings of Christian
theology" or even "hold the teachings of the Christian
religion." It is clear Jesus taught love as the way to eternal life (Luke
10:25-28) and not theology:
|
On
one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. |
|
"Teacher," he asked,
"What must I do to inherit eternal life?" |
|
"What is written in
the law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" |
|
He answered: "Love
the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your
strength and with all your mind, and, love your neighbor as yourself." |
|
"You have answered
correctly," Jesus replied, "Do this and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28) |
Many critics are completely ignorant about
NDEs. Many refuse to find out for themselves and test the spirits for
themselves. Instead, ignorant things are said about the NDE because it is
not judged by its fruit.
Argument:
Other
people affiliated with non-Christian religions claim the Being of Light to
be Buddha, or Krishna, or some other religious figure. Certainly this
should raise red flags in a Christian's mind.
Rebuttal:
The only thing this proves is that there are many Beings of Light appearing in NDEs. God is the light. Many beings can manifest this light
regardless of their religious affiliation or church membership. Jesus
himself had this to say about Beings of Light:
|
You are the light of
the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a
lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it
gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light
shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father
in heaven. (Matt. 5:14-16) |
The professor sounds as if he is either a religious
bigot or religiously intolerant. Jesus certainly taught religious
tolerance. Jesus was a Jew who was killed by religiously intolerant
people.
Argument:
The Jesus appearing in many NDEs is Satan trying to keep people away from
the Jesus of the Bible.
Rebuttal:
This is not true. The professor seeks to keep people away from the Jesus
appearing in NDEs. Jesus' gospel of unconditional love was too dangerous
for the political structure of the religious establishment in his day.
Jesus' message of unconditional love found in NDEs is too dangerous for
the political structure of today's religious establishment. Ignorance
prevented the religious establishment from accepting the message of Christ
then; ignorance is preventing the religious establishment in general from
accepting the message of Christ in NDEs now.
Argument:
First off, let me suggest that you not limit your search for truth
to near-death experiences only. Both spiritually and academically, that may not
yield you the most success.
Rebuttal:
Yes. I do not limit my search for truth to only the NDE. This is why I believe
one should also consider science, philosophy, religion and other fields of
thought to find truth. It has been said beliefs can limit an open mind.
It is important to keep an open mind and to be receptive to every concept and at
the same time to be the pure skeptic: neither accepting nor rejecting a concept
until it is proven true. It is good to have an opinion. But when talking about truth, we must leave our opinions to yourself. In this respect, it
is a good idea to not believe NDEs prove life after death exists. This has not
yet been proven to be true. The same is true for the Bible. Like religion, the
NDE has its own limitations. Especially in that such experiences are often colored by the experiencers own religion, philosophy, cultural
background and perspective. What is true for one experiencer may not be true for
another experiencer. Just like here on earth, during a NDE it is possible we
generally create our own reality.
Argument:
I think God's desire is that ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the
truth. Coming to the knowledge of the truth occurs in only one WAY - and that
Way's Name is Jesus:
Rebuttal:
This may be true for you but it may not be true for Jews, Hindus, or
Buddhists for example. Even Christians do not agree on virtually
every doctrine of the faith. We should understand the limitations concerning
dogma and the letter of the law. After all, Jesus emphasized the spirit of the
law rather than the letter. This is because it is really love - not religious
dogma or rituals - that creates spirituality. Dogma can only help people come the
path of spirituality; but the religious structure itself is not necessarily the
way.
Jesus himself affirmed that love for God and love for your neighbors is the
way to eternal life (Luke 10:25-28) John, the disciple who is claimed to
know best the love of Jesus said, "Everyone who loves is born of God and
knows God because God is love." (1 John 4:7-8) Peter had this to say about
it: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation
anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him." (Acts
10:34)
I am convinced
that Christianity was never meant to be the personality cult it is today. I don't think Jesus was ego-centric when
he said, "I am the way, the truth, the life. No one comes to the Father but
by me." Like everything Jesus said we must often try to understand the
deeper spiritual meaning behind the literal words.
It is evident the Bible
mentions that God is love, life, and light. It states that this is true for the
Jew as well as the Gentile. The central focus of almost every major world
religion is how to attain at-one-ment with God - in the way that Jesus and
Buddha did - for example. According to many religions it is love that is the
central focus - love for God and love for others. So when Jesus says he is the
way, the truth and the life, I interpret this to mean that Jesus shows people
the way to heaven through example. He is the example. He is a pattern for which people can
follow - unconditional love through self-sacrifice and self-denial.
Argument:
Do you suggest humans can love each other enough to be saved and not need the
BLOOD of Christ to cover their actions and intents that are not lovely?
Rebuttal:
Would you be pleased if someone tortured and killed your son so that you can
forgive people? What about slitting the throats of thousands of innocent
animals? Would you be pleased? Wouldn't you instead be horrified?
The Bible is filled with symbols. The references to blood, the lamb, sacrifice,
the way, born again, baptism, etc.. are symbols that have a deeper spiritual
meaning. I don't believe the Christian doctrine of salvation is through
literally believing in Jesus' name or believing things about Jesus or even
worshipping Jesus. My understanding is that sanctification comes by emulating
the love Jesus by practicing unconditional love. Blood does not save us in a literal way.
The death of Jesus has a much deeper spiritual meaning. The blood of Jesus
demonstrates the self-sacrifice and self-denial we must face in attaining divine
unconditional love. Jesus taught that we must all "take up our crosses and
follow him." Not in a literal sense, but in a spiritual sense. It is by
walking in love that we reach at-one-ment with God. Love comes from God. (1
John 4:7) Everyone who loves knows God because God is love. (1 John
4:7-8).
Argument:
You receive the testimony of men on matters of after-death experience, but you
reject the Living and enduring Word of God that abideth forever??
Rebuttal: If by Word of God you mean a book, then I have to tell you that I
don't accept all of it as fact. If by Word of God you mean the
divinity which was in Jesus then my answer is that I certainly don't reject
Jesus. However I am very interested in what others who have been in the
presence of Jesus on the other side have to say. I don't limit God to a book.
Argument:
I am coming on strong because if you know what the WORD says, and you even use
parts of it in your web site ... you also know that it is better to have a
millstone tied around your neck and be cast into the sea than to teach any
little one to go astray. Love is great - Love is Jesus - if you leave him and
what he accomplished on the Cross out of your theology - it is heresy. Just get
real with him and he will be REAL to you.
Rebuttal: Again, the Word is
God and not a book. You are worshipping the Bible as the Word. The true Word
is the Spirit of Jesus - love. And God is love.
Concerning the cross of Jesus there are
some references to it found in NDEs. Here are some of them:
Valvita Jones
- Gerard Landry -
Lorraine Tutmarc
- Don Brubaker
- Dr. George Rodonaia
Argument:
You had a profound experience with Christ that taught you that he is not the
only way of salvation? Sounds like error.
Rebuttal:
The Bible and NDEs show that God is the way to heaven. God
is love. Your religion is the personality cult of Jesus. Jesus manifested love in a way that perhaps relatively few people
have. Again, the way to heaven is love - just as Jesus taught in Luke 10:25-28. This
love is not limited to Christians or the Bible.
Argument:
Actual first-hand experiences can only be verified if they measure up to the
BOOK.
Rebuttal:
Again you are worshipping a book as the Word. The true Word is
Jesus. It is not a book alone that measures
truth. Jesus stated that we must measure the truthfulness or falsehood of things
by the test he gave. When the religious leaders were accusing Jesus of
performing miracles by the power of Satan, Jesus gave us the test. Jesus said
that a tree is known by its fruit. (Matt. 12:24-37) A good tree does not
bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. What does Jesus mean by
this? The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc.. (Gal 5:22-23).
It is by their fruit that you will know whether they are of God or not. Since
the NDE bears much fruit of the Spirit we know it is of God. Therefore it is
not the Bible that we measure truth. It is by the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Argument:
If NDEs don't show that Christ shed his blood for our sins, and that the PERSON
of JESUS CHRIST is the ONLY WAY to heaven, then NDEs DO NOT show the truth.
Rebuttal:
You erroneously believe that you are going to heaven because you worship
Jesus. Reread the gospels and you will see that Jesus said it is not those who
say, "Lord, Lord." Rather it is those who do what Jesus commands. His
command is love. God is love. This is what gets you to heaven - walking in love
as Jesus did. Confessing Jesus with your lips is not going to get you anywhere.
There are NDEs that deal with the sacrifice of Jesus. I already gave you all the
ones I have. There are numerous reasons why Jesus' death benefited so many
people. I already stated one of them and that is that Jesus' self-sacrifice and live of
love shows us the way. Another reason is that Jesus' martyrdom was greatly
responsible for proliferating his teachings all over the world. Jesus said that
when he is lifted up he will draw all men to himself.
Another reason Christ's
death helped humankind is that he presented a strong case for life after death.
Another reason is that Christ's death helped demonstrate how sincere Christ was
in his devotion to God and how he was willing to die for his beliefs and
teachings. Only a sincere and truthful person would subject themselves to such
torture for the truthfulness of his teachings. A fake would probably not die
this way for a lie.
Another reason is that Jesus emphasized the fact that God
has forgiven us and his life, death and teachings greatly gives us a reason to
believe it.
Argument:
2 Corinthians 5:10 - "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body,
whether good or bad."
Rebuttal:
Although it is true that God is the "Judge of all", the Bible also
states that God has already forgiven everyone. Jesus revealed in
the Bible that the Father judges no one. The Bible suggests that
God does not keep records of wrongs. Jesus revealed that even he
does not judge anyone. The Bible suggests that people are judges
of only themselves (self-condemnation).
The Judge has already forgiven everyone. The Father judges no one.
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|
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the
Son. (John 5:22) |
God does not keep records of
wrongs:
|
| It
[love] keeps no record of wrongs. (1 Cor. 13:5) |
|
| God is love. (1 John 4:16) |
Neither does the Son judge anyone:
|
|
You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no
one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right,
because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who
sent me. (John 8:15-16) |
| |
|
Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my
brother to divide the inheritance with me." Jesus
replied, "Man, who appointed me a judge or an
arbiter between you?" Then he said to them, "Watch
out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a
man's life does not consist in the abundance of his
possessions." (Luke 12:13-15) |
|
|
As
for the person who hears my words but does not keep
them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to
judge the world, but to save it. (John 12:47) |
We judge only ourselves (i.e.,
self-condemnation).
|
|
|
There is a judge
for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very
word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." (John
12:47-48) |
|
|
For by your words
you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.
(Matt. 12:37) |
|
|
Warn a divisive
person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have
nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped
and sinful; he is self-condemned. (Titus 3:10-11) |
|
|
For God did not
send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the
world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but
whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not
believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict:
Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of
light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates
the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds
will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the
light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been
done through God. (John 3:17-21) |
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|
This then is how
we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at
rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is
greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if
our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God. (1 John
3:19-21) |
|
|
Do you not know
that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the
world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know
that we will judge angels? (1 Cor. 6:2-3) |
|
|
Now if I drive out
demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them out? So
then, they will be your judges. (Luke 11:19) |
Argument:
As far back as Colosse, people were tripped up by things that seemed spiritual
but really only made people focus on themselves and move away from Christ. You
are high on experience and your own opinions but you don't want to
"limit Jesus to the Bible." Then what Jesus do you emulate?
Rebuttal:
An experience with Jesus is what saves you. Not a book. No matter how much
you limit Jesus to a book it won't do you any good unless you have an experience
with Jesus.
Argument:
Upon reading your comments I was stirred to comment. You use the Holy Bible as a
foundation when quoting "Jesus is the way shower." Why do you use the
bible as an authority if you don't believe it is the infallible word of God?
Rebuttal:
I don't believe the Bible is God. The universe is a far greater revelation
of God than any book. The Bible as it exists today was put together by the Pope.
The Pope had many writings cut out which were considered scripture in Jesus'
day. For example, the Book of Jude quotes from a book that was part of
Hebrew canon at the time of Jesus' ministry on earth and for many years after by
early Christians. I am referring to the Book of Enoch. Here is the quote in Jude
14-15 of 1 Enoch 1:9
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|
In the seventh [generation] from Adam Enoch also prophesied these things,
saying: 'Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on
all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have
committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly
sinners spoke against him'. |
Now if the Bible quotes from the Book of Enoch then this means the
Book of
Enoch is divinely inspired and should be included in the Bible. The Book of
Enoch existed centuries before the birth of Christ and is considered by many to
be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It is probably very certain that
Jesus read it and believed it to be scripture. It was considered scripture by
many early Christians. The earliest writings of the Church Fathers is filled
with references to this book. The early second century Epistle of
Barnabas makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and third century
Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Clement of Alexandria
all quote from the Book of Enoch. Tertullian even called the Book of Enoch
"Holy Scripture". It was widely known and read during the first three
centuries after Christ.
The Book of Enoch and many other books became discredited and
declared heresy by the Pope during the Council of Laodicea. After being banned by the
Catholic Church it gradually passed out of circulation. By studying
more about the Roman Church's tremendous influence in developing the New
Testament canon, you will agree that the New Testament was arbitrarily put
together by a few men who had tremendous power in deciding what was the word of
God and what wasn't. You can read more about this
website.
Argument:
The Bible, if you believe the Bible, says, "There is ONE mediator between
God and man ... the man Christ Jesus." Find one mention of Buddha or
Mohammed or any other religion exempting Jesus Christ as the son of God in the
Bible. It's not there.
Rebuttal:
You believe you are saved because you worship Jesus and read the
Bible. I am saying it takes more than that. It means taking up your own
cross and not relying solely on the cross of Jesus. You must walk in love
as Jesus commanded. It is love - not
religious dogma or the Bible - that creates spiritual growth. God is love - not
a Bible. Believing the Bible and worshipping Jesus will get you nowhere. Jesus, like many other highly enlightened
spiritual leaders, affirmed that love for God and neighbors is the way to
eternal life. Since God is love those who teach love are teaching God.
I am convinced that Christianity was never meant to be the
personality cult it has been for thousands of years. Jesus was
certainly not ego-centric. Even when he claimed:
|
|
I
am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me. (John
14:6) |
Everything Jesus taught must be understood on a deeper spiritual
level. It is evident the Bible mentions that God is love, life, and light. The
Bible mentions that these teachings is true for the Jew as well as the Gentile.
The central focus of many religions around the world is how humans can attain
at-one-ment with God. Practically every religion teaches that love is the way to
at-one-ment - love for God and love for others. So when Jesus says he is the
way, the truth and the life, I interpret this to mean that Jesus shows people
the way to at-one-ment. He is the example and the pattern to live
your life as. That life is love. Buddha and Krishna taught the same teaching
that living a life of love is what matters.
As for "finding one mention of Buddha or Mohammed or any other religion
exempting Jesus Christ as the son of God in the Bible," I don't believe any
religion exempts Jesus as the son of God with the possible exception of Judaism,
whose followers generally exempts Jesus as the Messiah. And worshipping anyone
leads nowhere.
Argument:
There is only one original word of God documented back 1000's of
years ago ... long before counterfeits came in to establish themselves. Jesus
said the road is narrow. If you could get to heaven through any and all
religions ... it would make the road WIDE and Hitler, Osama, Saddam, etc. would
be saved and heaven-bound for they are "religious!"
Rebuttal:
The Word is not a book! If you think otherwise you are worshipping a
book and not Jesus. Jesus himself is the Word - and the Word is God - and
God is love. According to the Bible, the Word of
God is the Logos, the Spirit of Jesus, the only one original Word of God (see
Rev. 19:13).
Jesus taught a gospel that is love - a love that loves everyone, wills to save
everyone and actually saves everyone.
Argument:
To me, religion has never saved one soul. Jesus has saved many.
Rebuttal:
But don't you see that by saying that Jesus, as a personality, is the way to
heaven you are making religion a very very important part of salvation.
Granted, no religion is the way to eternal life including Buddhism -
Christianity - Hinduism etc, because the way to heaven is love [God]. Love is
universal. It is not limited to only Christians. God does not love only
Christians. God loves the whole world and it is dishonoring to God to think that
God loves everyone but throws the vast majority of humanity into hell for not
believing or hearing about the name of Jesus.
Argument:
Religion is man trying in vain to live a perfect life to make heaven.
Rebuttal:
I disagree. If this is true than you would have to say that the religion
of taking your cross
and following Jesus is in vain. Most religions teach the importance of love.
Religions only point they way to heaven: love. Many religious doctrines in
themselves, such as believing that Jesus died for our sins or that we must
worship Jesus, are trying in vain to reach heaven.
Remember, it is faith AND works. Not faith alone. Even demons believe in God.
Argument:
He is God in the flesh. And the only one!
Rebuttal:
Not so! Yes, Jesus is the son of God; but we too are sons of God. God lives in
us through love. Even Jesus said that God was within us:
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|
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the religious
leaders, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be
God." |
|
|
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said
you are gods? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came - and the
Scripture cannot be broken - what about the one whom the Father set apart as his
very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because
I said, "I am God's SON?" (John 10:33-36) |
|
| I said,
"You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High." (Psalm 82:6) |
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|
Because
you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the
Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." (Gal. 4:6-7) |
The main debate after the death of Christ was the nature of Christ. Was
Christ God in the flesh, or was Christ as man who manifested the Spirit
of God in a manner very unique. I have evidence to believe that Jesus
was a man who manifested the Spirit of God in a unique manner.
Argument:
May I ask you sir, do you believe that John 3:16 is the exact message God
intended? "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son
that whosoever believeth (has faith) ... (opposite of doubt) ...
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Rebuttal:
Yes I believe John 3:16 is the heart of Jesus' message and
the gospel. I believe it wholeheartedly. It says that God loves the world (every
human being who ever lived). He gave us his Son to bring humanity the
message of this unconditional love that God has for the world. Whoever believes
in Him will not perish but have eternal life. Now, the question is this: What
does it mean to "believe in him?"
|
| A. To believe in Jesus?
Nothing more. |
|
| B. To
believe in his name? Lord! Lord! |
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| C. To
believe things about Jesus? God. Savior. |
|
| D. To
believe his work on the cross? Wash. Blood. Lamb. |
|
| E. To
believe that you must worship Jesus? |
|
| F. To
believe only the Bible? |
|
| G. To believe you must
be a Christian? |
I think the answer
is no to all of these. Isn't Jesus saying that whosoever
believes in my message by taking up their own cross and following him in a life
of love for God and others? After all, if faith is all that is needed then
even the demons will be saved. Faith alone is not enough. Faith without
works is dead.
Some Christians believe we must be baptized to be saved. Some believe we must
speak in tongues. Some believe we must believe Jesus is God. Some believe we
must worship Jesus. Some believe we must be a member of a particular
church. People believe
religion is the way to heaven. But unless the religion you practice is
unconditional love then you are not following in Jesus' footsteps.
|
| God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1
John 4:16) |
The gospel is love - love for God and love for others. This is the way to eternal
life. This is the gospel that Jesus taught (see the Sermon on the Mount)
Argument:
Do you also take the approach: I do not deny or affirm this concerning basic
salvation doctrine? Because according to this particular word of God there is no
option to deny or affirm.
Rebuttal:
I don't believe any religious doctrine is the way to eternal life. Only
practicing what Jesus taught and lived - love for others and God - is the way to
eternal life. Not a lifestyle. Not something we profess with our lips our
believe in our head. Not worship. It is walking as Jesus did in unconditional love for
everyone.
Argument:
Otherwise, the maybe or maybe not approach to this particular scripture would
land you in hell. I pray not Kevin.
Rebuttal:
The gospel you believe is that worshipping Jesus and believing he is
Lord is the way to heaven. But unless you are taking up your own cross and
following Jesus - not just letting Jesus do all the work - then it is you
who are going to hell. Faith alone can land you in hell. Even demons have
faith in God. Instead of heaven, some people create hell within themselves because they
do not live the example that Jesus gave us - a life of love for God and others.
It is true that having unconditional love for
everyone is a very high goal; but it is the standard that Jesus taught - love for even
your
enemies. Believing Jesus is Lord is no ticket to heaven. Demons know Jesus is
Lord.
Argument: I
wanted to know what you make of this verse:
|
For it is by grace
you have been saved, through faith - and this not of
yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can
boast. (Eph. 2:8-9) |
This clearly shows that to get to heaven you are not saved by your
works - but by Jesus Christ. I do not believe in what your site states
about the way to get to heaven. The only way to heaven is through Jesus
Christ. God sent him to die on the cross so we could go to heaven to live
with God when we die. If Jesus never came we would all go to hell.
Rebuttal:
In
the above verse, Paul declares that salvation is by faith alone. This is in
complete contradiction with the teachings of Jesus and the other apostles who knew
Jesus and his teachings much more than Paul did. Paul also got into
disputes with the other apostles who believed salvation was based on good works
and faith, not by faith alone:
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You see that a person is justified by what he
does and not by faith alone. (James 2:24) |
Some Bible scholars believe that Paul hijacked the Christianity
taught by Jesus and his apostles. Paul was a self-appointed apostle who taught that
following the law no longer applied and that Judaism is no longer relevant to
Christians. However it is clear that Jesus never taught that the law no longer
applied and he never repudiated Judaism or the law. Jesus was a Jew. Paul was
constantly in conflict the Jews and the apostles in his day because Paul taught
that the law no longer applied. But it is clear from Jesus' teachings in the
gospel that Jesus taught how salvation is by good works. In fact, Jesus
emphasized good works over faith all the time.
This of course means that the Bible is fallible. This agrees with the fact
that there are many contradictions and errors in the Bible. In my opinion,
Paul's teachings are in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus. And
there are many contradictions between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings
of Paul. Again Paul never knew Jesus except in a vision. The authority of the
other apostles should be held in much greater respect than Paul. Here are just a
few contradictions between the teachings of Jesus and of Paul:
|
PAUL: For
it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from
yourselves, it is the gift of GOD -- not by works, so that no one
can boast. (Eph. 2:8-9) |
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| JESUS: You
see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith
alone. (James 2:24) |
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| PAUL:
And if by grace, then it
is no longer by works. (Rom. 11:6) |
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|
JESUS: Then the King will say to those on his right,
"Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and
you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me
in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after
me, I was in prison and you came to visit me." (Matt. 25:31-45) |
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PAUL: Therefore
we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the
law. (Rom. 3:28) |
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JESUS:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say to
you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no
way pass from the law, until all be fulfilled. Whoever shall break
one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be
called the least in the kingdom of heaven but whosoever shall do and
teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of
heaven." (Matt. 5:17-19) |
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|
PAUL: Christ
has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for
us for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree. (Gal.
3:13) |
|
| JESUS:
On
one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. |
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|
"Teacher," he asked, "What must I do to inherit eternal
life?" |
|
| "What is written in the law?" he replied.
"How do you read it?" |
|
|
He answered: "Love the Lord
your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all
your strength and with all your mind, and, love your neighbor as
yourself." |
|
| "You have answered correctly," Jesus
replied, "Do this and you will live."
(Luke 10:25-28) |
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|
PAUL: We who are Jews by birth and not
"Gentile sinners" know that a
man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus
Christ.
(Gal 2:15-16) |
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|
JESUS:
Not everyone who says to me,
"Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but
only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. |
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|
Many will say to me on that day,
"Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles?" |
|
| Then I will tell them plainly,
"I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" |
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|
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great
crash.
(Matt 7:21-27) |
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|
PAUL: But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy
life - not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and
grace.
(2 Tim. 1:8-9) |
|
|
JESUS:
For the
Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and
then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matt.
16:27) |
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PAUL: Therefore no
one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;
rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Rom. 3:20) |
|
|
JESUS:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked
him: |
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|
"Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" |
|
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"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
There is no commandment greater than these." |
|
|
"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." |
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|
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him,
"You are not far from the kingdom of God." (Mark 12:28-34) |
We can conclude from this, despite
fallibility of some of Paul's letters, acts of good works and obeying the law and following the
commandments of Jesus are very necessary and an important part of our
salvation.
